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Rough Draft - More to come
  • Shredigan's or Metalhead's?

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    debborah1
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by debborah1 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:08 pm

    ShoreSlayer wrote:Been having a lot of fun with this little project since getting past the drum hump. A couple more tracks have reached their final, pre-mastering stages and the past couple weeks have been all about vocals and solos. The solo I'm using is from a well-known metal classic so I'm trying to do it justice by performing it as intended so that's taking a lot of time and effort for a hack like me but great practice too.

    As for the vocals, well, I've never been much of a singer but have always tried to strive for more of a clear delivery that conveys emotion and discernible lyrics but with a bit of guts n' balls to it for the most part. Shooting for more of a death metal, not-quite-cookie-monster performance here has also proven quite interesting as it's required me to put my voice through some paces it's never attempted before.

    Today was cool though as I seem to have inadvertently discovered a previously imprisoned, interestingly little, demonic like creature residing some place in my soul while doing some early morning vocals. He's kinda scaring me but I don't think he'd go back in his cage even if I tried :?

    Little bastard's hurting my throat a bit but it's probably in my best interests to just let him keep singing for now. Not sure I'd like him when he's angry :lol:

    Ummmmm Rob?....Is that you Rob?.....just what are these little voices telling you? hmmm?
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    Schluckspecht666
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Schluckspecht666 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:50 am

    Zeh wrote:
    Schluckspecht666 wrote:I am looking forward to the discussions we'll have among the soccer fans once the FIFA Worldcup starts...

    ...that will get ugly... :cheers: :trashdrink: :party: :trashdrink: :heavydrink: :party:


    I think Brazil will make it again :heavydrink:


    nope. :twisted:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Dutchguy-Tim » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:36 pm

    Schluckspecht666 wrote:
    Zeh wrote:
    Schluckspecht666 wrote:I am looking forward to the discussions we'll have among the soccer fans once the FIFA Worldcup starts...

    ...that will get ugly... :cheers: :trashdrink: :party: :trashdrink: :heavydrink: :party:


    I think Brazil will make it again :heavydrink:


    nope. :twisted:



    i am really hoping on a final between holland and germany! it would be the ultimate revenge for the Dutch :viking:

    but w'll see. lets beat urguay first. and germany has no picknick with spain either
    Hornblowing survivor of 70.000 tons of metal January 2011 / 2012 / 2015
    counting down to 70.000 tons of metal 2018

    what the hell did you do this winter?
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:04 pm

    Curses!!

    I create a FIFA World Cup pool in Off Course and still the song thread hijacking continues!!

    Damned Dutch :twisted:

    Still, I won't go so far as to say Go Uruguay Go cuz I'd prefer a Germany vs. Netherlands final also :D

    Now go climb a tree, drink a beer and get out of this thread!!

    *throws many :givebeer: @ Tim*
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Dutchguy-Tim » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:56 am

    i just hope that both holland and germany make it to finals
    it would vertainlly blow if we have to play a "final" for 3rd place :?

    cheers ShoreSlayer :cheers:
    Hornblowing survivor of 70.000 tons of metal January 2011 / 2012 / 2015
    counting down to 70.000 tons of metal 2018

    what the hell did you do this winter?
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:54 am

    In other news...

    Metalhead's Isle has overtaken Shredigan's Isle in the poll in the past couple weeks. I believe it's a Danish conspiracy and may have to veto this result as I've already had some folks stop by and record background vocal tracks using Shredigan's based on previous poll standings. Then again, it wouldn't take much to just redo those tiny parts. Hmm... I've grown attached to Shreddy though. We'll see :)

    Met a guy at Melvins last night that's here from Peru studying audio engineering and is going to get involved and help me tweak the final product so that's exciting. Even more cool though is that I may be ditching the drums I worked for weeks and weeks on because a certain drummer suddenly has more free time than normal and has offered his services... Might cost me a box of beer or something but yeah, LIVE DRUMS > my crappy drum programming - Any Day!! :mrgreen:
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Dark Dreams » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:42 pm

    How about a virtual riot to protest slow updates about this one here... :heavydrink:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:01 am

    Dark Dreams wrote:How about a virtual riot to protest slow updates about this one here... :heavydrink:

    lol... Well DD, next to you and a very few others here, I hardly think this is gonna generate as much interest as which band is next :lol:
    But thanks all the same. Your interest and enthusiasm are appreciated. As it happens, the whole drums issue took on a life of it's own and the real drummer's tracks, that will hopefully replace the programmed drums, are due to arrive any day now. Once that's done, it should just be a few weeks til all the rest is put together. Trust me, when there's an update that justifies a new post, you'll get one :headbanger:
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by debborah1 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:21 am

    ShoreSlayer wrote:
    Dark Dreams wrote:How about a virtual riot to protest slow updates about this one here... :heavydrink:

    lol... Well DD, next to you and a very few others here, I hardly think this is gonna generate as much interest as which band is next :lol:
    But thanks all the same. Your interest and enthusiasm are appreciated. As it happens, the whole drums issue took on a life of it's own and the real drummer's tracks, that will hopefully replace the programmed drums, are due to arrive any day now. Once that's done, it should just be a few weeks til all the rest is put together. Trust me, when there's an update that justifies a new post, you'll get one :headbanger:

    :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger:
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    2012 cabin #7538.....2nd time survivor!!
    \m/ >.< \m/
    2014.....3RD TIME SURVIVOR
    2015.....BOOKED
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by sideways » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:51 pm

    ShoreSlayer wrote:
    Dark Dreams wrote:How about a virtual riot to protest slow updates about this one here... :heavydrink:

    lol... Well DD, next to you and a very few others here, I hardly think this is gonna generate as much interest as which band is next :lol:
    But thanks all the same. Your interest and enthusiasm are appreciated. As it happens, the whole drums issue took on a life of it's own and the real drummer's tracks, that will hopefully replace the programmed drums, are due to arrive any day now. Once that's done, it should just be a few weeks til all the rest is put together. Trust me, when there's an update that justifies a new post, you'll get one :headbanger:



    LETS HEAR IT!!!!!
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:27 pm

    sideways wrote:LETS HEAR IT!!!!!

    Aside from some tech tweaking (compression, reverb, eq etc), the drums are DONE!! (finally!!) Now furiously laying down multiple guitar and bass tracks. Busy week starting school, meeting with goofy new supervisor and seeing Helmet on Thursday but I'm hoping to be ready for vocals and leads by end of the week!! :shred:
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:29 pm

    Couple setbacks on the drums during the week but, for good or ill, they're now complete, or at least, as good as they'll ever get. Quite happy with 95% of the results and learned a lot but glad they're done and out of the way.

    Now for the (much more) fun parts! :shred: :metalguy: :deathmetal: :headbanger:

    *EDIT* just cuz looking at it makes me grin haha!!

    Image
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:02 pm

    Well... [EDIT]!!!

    I sure screwed that up :oops:

    A few questions from friends led me to look into the legalities of this little project and, as it turns out, even though the instruments and arrangement have been altered drastically, because this is essentially a cover tune, I'd be exposing myself to potential legal action were I to even so much as give it away without first gaining the proper permissions. And the bare minimum for that is just too much of an expense to justify for this.

    I'm pretty freaking devastated by this development as lots of time, energy, frustration and some cash just got flushed down the drain but I'll get past it. Was a lot of fun to do and I learned a lot. Still. Damn :evil:
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:05 am

    As long as you aren't trying to sell it, then you are as good as gold.


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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:20 pm

    Deathbringer wrote:As long as you aren't trying to sell it, then you are as good as gold.

    I wish this was true. And maybe better minds than mine can help me see my way to believing you but I spent much of last week contacting a variety of Canadian copyright authorities and all told me the same thing(s).

    Essentially, making something available for download (such as posting a link here to a file on a file sharing site such as filefront) is the legal equivalent of giving away copies of cd's which completely falls under the same guidelines as any other cd/tape/vinyl reproduction laws and require mechanical licenses. Posting to a streaming site such as Youtube or Myspace requires you to abide by the rules set out by the sites themselves and these too are quite clear.

    I'll post a couple quotes for reference in case anyone CAN find me a loophole because, seriously, I'd love nothing more than to find one I could fit through without fear of later being sued. Any help would be beyond greatly appreciated.

    Contacted SOCAN and the CMRRA here in Canada as well as did research via Harry Fox who are the main licensing body in the US and all initial info confirmed my fears. I dug further and e-mailed back and forth with a woman at SCI (sort of a division of the CMRRA) and was told the following:

    Let me try to explain.

    For the purpose of distributing MP3 files over the net (ex: providing an MP3 file on your business website), you would need to obtain a license for the reproduction of these musical works provided CSI represents the song in question. It does not matter whether the MP3's are free or not or if one can stream 2 seconds, 45 seconds of music. Unfortunately, CSI cannot license for this type of use right now. CSI is drafting an agreement that would enable licensing for smaller uses without adhering to the extensive administrative and technical provisions required by the current Online Music Service Tariff but it has yet to be completed.

    Presently, the only way to be licensed would be to have your visitors (on your website) be rerouted to an online music service where they could sample and potentially purchase the track. In Canada, it is the Online store's responsibility to obtain Online licenses for all tracks downloaded to Canadian residents. From your website, the user would click on the track and be rerouted to the online service of your choice. Should you decide to go this route, please ensure that you relay all the proper song writing information to the online music service when registering your musical works.

    If the downloads are occurring in other territories, you must contact those societies as international copyright laws may differ from country to country. For musical works downloaded in the US, please contact The Harry Fox Agency.

    For any information regarding SOCAN and online licenses for the communication right, please visit http://www.socan.ca.

    As I have your information on file, please let me know if you want me to contact you once this agreement for smaller uses is finalized.

    Please let me know if this does not answer your questions.


    The info on Youtube's copyright related pages are pretty clear as well:

    General Copyright Inquiries: Examples of copyrighted works

    In general, any original work of authorship may be protected by copyright. Copyrighted materials may be subject to claims of copyright infringement. The most common reason we take down videos for copyright infringement is that they are unauthorized copies of copyrighted content, and the owners of the copyrighted content have alerted us that their content is being used without their permission. Once we become aware of an unauthorized use, we will remove the video promptly. See http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html for more information about U.S. copyright law.

    Some examples of potentially infringing content are:

    * TV shows
    o Including sitcoms, sports broadcasts, news broadcasts, comedy shows, cartoons, dramas, etc.
    o Includes network and cable TV, pay-per-view and on-demand TV
    * Music videos, such as the ones you might find on music video channels
    * Videos of live concerts, even if you captured the video yourself
    o Even if you took the video yourself, the performer controls the right to use his/her image in a video, the songwriter owns the rights to the song being performed, and sometimes the venue prohibits filming without permission, so this video is likely to infringe somebody else's rights.
    * Movies and movie trailers
    * Commercials
    * Slide shows that include photos or images owned by somebody else


    There is a loophole known as "[urlhttp://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?answer=83753&hl=en-US]Fair Use[/url]" but really only refers to very incidental situations such as something playing on TV in the background of a video where the stuff on TV has nothing to do with what's being recorded but that doesn't apply to my situation.

    As I mentioned back in June, not only is the song based on the TV show theme song, but I also employed the use of a classic metal song for the solo section. I've attempted to contact the band in question directly to see if they might give me the okay but haven't heard back from them. I toyed with the idea of not asking them (you know the old saying, easier to ask forgiveness than permission) but decided not to go that route once I came to understand more about the legalities involved. If they were to give me permission then I might look into saving up the cash that might free up the TV show theme song rights but I'm not feeling terribly confident about that whole idea.

    One of my friends offered the argument that bands post videos online of themselves all the time doing covers of other bands' songs. Well, from all reports, they're really doing so at great potential risk of litigation. I suspect that few bands would bother suing someone just for posting a video of themselves doing a simple cover tune and wouldn't get too upset unless someone was releasing it on a full cd or something. But this is (was) a full on, studio quality re-make of the 2 songs in question and I can see it pretty easily falling into the category of the latter.

    As much as I love the song and was stoked more than you can all imagine for you guys to hear it, I can't afford to be sued over it lol. I'm already too broke even to get my ass to Seattle for ST in 2 weeks :oops:
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:33 pm

    I really feel like an ass dragging this out all summer and now having absolutely nothing to offer you all. Best I can do atm (and possibly ever afaik) is to give ya the final lyrics that were actually sung on the recording. The people who were involved or just got to hear the song in it's most recent mixed forms were really loving it (at least one forum member could even vouch for that lol) so I will finish it and share the final mix with people I know. I'll bring it with me on the trip too so anyone who wants to can have a listen but, based on what I know now, that's as much as I can risk.

    Shredigan's Isle

    Just sit right back and crack a beer and hear, a tale of a fucked up trip
    Departing from this “real” world - Aboard a massive ship.

    The mate was a Diamond wailing fan, the skipper thrashed for sure.
    Clan 666 set sail that day - For a huge metal tour, a huge metal tour!

    The weather started getting rough, and the mighty ship was lost.
    Valhalla, liquor and a Marshall stack - and that infamous albatross, that infamous albatross.

    Incomparable heavy metal festival unheard of to this day
    With Testament
    And Death Angel,
    Trouble, Raven, Rage and Tyr
    Fear Factory
    Sanctuary and Nevermore
    Exploding on the seven seas

    solos

    So this is the tale of those metalheads,
    They’d die for a right, good time,
    You know they’ll make the old gods laugh, when they chant those Dio rhymes.

    The first mate and the Skipper too,
    Will do their very best,
    To crank the music to the skies, for an ocean metal fest.

    Guitars, and lights and Motorhead (Alt version – no Motorhead???)
    Pagan lust and luxury,
    No hip hop or calypso, - As pure metal as can be

    So join us here next week you fools,
    You're sure to see us smile,
    Two thousand metal castaways, back from Shredigan’s Isle.
    Back from Shredigan’s Isle!!
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

    :boobs: 2018/2019 Hockeyagi Champion :boobs:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by debborah1 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:40 pm

    Awww Rob....we really appreciate your time and effort!.....Just bring an acoustic and sing it to us for open mic night!!! ;)
    2011 MAIDEN VOYAGE SURVIVOR!
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:45 pm

    debborah1 wrote:Awww Rob....we really appreciate your time and effort!.....Just bring an acoustic and sing it to us for open mic night!!! ;)

    lol... it ain't really that kind of song but thanks ;) Just have some headphones in your luggage for when ya have a spare 5 minutes. I'll have it on my phone but doubt that passing my headphones to multiple passengers would be very wise from a hygiene perspective haha
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

    :boobs: 2018/2019 Hockeyagi Champion :boobs:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by KevinP » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:15 pm

    So basicially you could have wasted all your free time playing Red Dead Redemption and gotten a few extra achievements out of it instead. :P :P :P
    WISHLIST

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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by DragonLordJones » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:24 pm

    ShoreSlayer wrote:I really feel like an ass dragging this out all summer and now having absolutely nothing to offer you all. Best I can do atm (and possibly ever afaik) is to give ya the final lyrics that were actually sung on the recording. The people who were involved or just got to hear the song in it's most recent mixed forms were really loving it (at least one forum member could even vouch for that lol) so I will finish it and share the final mix with people I know. I'll bring it with me on the trip too so anyone who wants to can have a listen but, based on what I know now, that's as much as I can risk.

    Shredigan's Isle

    Just sit right back and crack a beer and hear, a tale of a fucked up trip
    Departing from this “real” world - Aboard a massive ship.

    The mate was a Diamond wailing fan, the skipper thrashed for sure.
    Clan 666 set sail that day - For a huge metal tour, a huge metal tour!

    The weather started getting rough, and the mighty ship was lost.
    Valhalla, liquor and a Marshall stack - and that infamous albatross, that infamous albatross.

    Incomparable heavy metal festival unheard of to this day
    With Testament
    And Death Angel,
    Trouble, Raven, Rage and Tyr
    Fear Factory
    Sanctuary and Nevermore
    Exploding on the seven seas

    solos

    So this is the tale of those metalheads,
    They’d die for a right, good time,
    You know they’ll make the old gods laugh, when they chant those Dio rhymes.

    The first mate and the Skipper too,
    Will do their very best,
    To crank the music to the skies, for an ocean metal fest.

    Guitars, and lights and Motorhead (Alt version – no Motorhead???)
    Pagan lust and luxury,
    No hip hop or calypso, - As pure metal as can be

    So join us here next week you fools,
    You're sure to see us smile,
    Two thousand metal castaways, back from Shredigan’s Isle.
    Back from Shredigan’s Isle!!



    well cds are cheap ... just burn 100 or so copies and hand 'em out to your closest friends (or first come first served) lol :cheers: :shred:

    how large of a file is it ........ e-mail it to everyone haha. wouldn't that fall under the fair use law? ;)
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:00 pm

    DragonLordJones wrote:well cds are cheap ... just burn 100 or so copies and hand 'em out to your closest friends (or first come first served) lol :cheers: :shred:

    how large of a file is it ........ e-mail it to everyone haha. wouldn't that fall under the fair use law? ;)

    No. That's exactly what the laws prohibit. I'd love nothing more than to e-mail any/everyone who wants one an mp3 or hand deliver cd's on the cruise but if EMI/Warner Bros (owners of the Giligan's Island theme song rights) or anyone remotely related to the metal band in question ever caught wind of it, I'm open to litigation.

    Fair use is nothing more than highly incidental content. Incidental being the key word. If you and I shot a goofy youtube video in your home and a TV show theme song was playing on the background on TV, no problem. But if we zoomed in on the show and made it's content an integral part of the clip, that's another matter.
    So far at least, 2011, 2012 & 2015 were enough for me
    :shred:Book 'em ANDO!! :headbanger:

    :boobs: 2018/2019 Hockeyagi Champion :boobs:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:35 pm

    Check out this website: http://www.publaw.com/parody.html. It details under what circumstances you could use the fair use defense for a parody.

    I took several copyright classes in college for my recording industry degree. If it was me, I would post it without hesitation. This is for a noncommercial purpose. You aren't gaining anything by this except a few laughs. There is no effect on the copyrighted work.

    Here ya go--
    "The fourth factor, the effect upon the potential market or value of the copyrighted work, analyzes the extent of harm that is caused by the new work to the market or potential market for the original copyrighted work. This factor evaluates the "potential" as well as "actual" financial harm that is or may be done to the original copyrighted work, as well any harm that may be caused to any existing or possible future derivative works. The United States Supreme Court at one time appeared to declare that this factor was the most important element in determining fair use but a more recent Supreme Court decision that will be discussed shortly appears to have limited this finding. However, when the new work becomes a substitute for, or makes the purchase unnecessary of the appropriated original copyrighted work then it is highly unlikely that the courts would sanction such use as being a fair use of the original work. The courts have expressed this standard by finding that an unauthorized use is not a fair use when the unauthorized use diminishes or negatively impacts the potential sale of the original copyrighted work, interferes with the marketability of the work, or fulfills the demand for the original copyrighted work. Although this factor does not presume that all commercial gain will automatically be an unfair use it does establish a high threshold of proof for the copier to demonstrate that the underlying work was not financially damaged."


    Think about all the kids on YouTube that post videos of them trying to play other bands' songs. They aren't getting sued! Not to mention all the other zillions of parodies of all types (music, video, images, etc.) all over the internet. No worries.
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:38 pm

    Deathbringer wrote:

    Think about all the kids on YouTube that post videos of them trying to play other bands' songs. They aren't getting sued! Not to mention all the other zillions of parodies of all types (music, video, images, etc.) all over the internet. No worries.



    Looks like you hit this point earlier. My bad.

    BUT STILL!
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:45 pm

    Deathbringer wrote:Check out this website: http://www.publaw.com/parody.html. It details under what circumstances you could use the fair use defense for a parody.

    I took several copyright classes in college for my recording industry degree. If it was me, I would post it without hesitation. This is for a noncommercial purpose. You aren't gaining anything by this except a few laughs. There is no effect on the copyrighted work.

    Here ya go--
    "The fourth factor, the effect upon the potential market or value of the copyrighted work, analyzes the extent of harm that is caused by the new work to the market or potential market for the original copyrighted work. This factor evaluates the "potential" as well as "actual" financial harm that is or may be done to the original copyrighted work, as well any harm that may be caused to any existing or possible future derivative works. The United States Supreme Court at one time appeared to declare that this factor was the most important element in determining fair use but a more recent Supreme Court decision that will be discussed shortly appears to have limited this finding. However, when the new work becomes a substitute for, or makes the purchase unnecessary of the appropriated original copyrighted work then it is highly unlikely that the courts would sanction such use as being a fair use of the original work. The courts have expressed this standard by finding that an unauthorized use is not a fair use when the unauthorized use diminishes or negatively impacts the potential sale of the original copyrighted work, interferes with the marketability of the work, or fulfills the demand for the original copyrighted work. Although this factor does not presume that all commercial gain will automatically be an unfair use it does establish a high threshold of proof for the copier to demonstrate that the underlying work was not financially damaged."


    Think about all the kids on YouTube that post videos of them trying to play other bands' songs. They aren't getting sued! Not to mention all the other zillions of parodies of all types (music, video, images, etc.) all over the internet. No worries.

    Sweet! I'm in a big rush atm as I just got out of class and have to get to work but you give me hope sir!! This may be just the loophole I was sort of assuming existed from the beginning. Thanks!! :headbanger:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:26 pm

    Wow, so many variables and differing perspectives to consider. I wonder how consistent these guidelines are within other countries internationally. Reading the page you linked for me DB, I definitely feel a lot better about the whole thing. I mean, It's pretty clear that this is non-commercial use with no motive for personal, monetary gain. Sure, if I was trying to sell cds or if Andy & co. wanted to use it to promote this or future cruises, then clearly the rights would need to be acquired from the holders. But as it's merely meant to entertain the interested members of this forum and some real life friends, I think it would be safe to post it to a private youtube page and just give the link out to those who want it, with the request that the link isn't shared beyond that group. Then, I can just take it down after a couple weeks or something once ppl have had a chance to check it out. Ugh, what a baffling roller coaster lol :evil:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:12 am

    Well, I just spoke with a woman at the band's record company in London but she wasn't able to be of much help. She just redirected me to EMI in Toronto but they're closed atm. She basically repeated what all other legal authorities have told me so far but I don't think I was able to make her understand that I wasn't sampling or re-playing the original recording but rather had done a completely new recording of all the instruments. Oh well, keep pluggin away I guess. There's gotta be a way :headbanger:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:29 am

    Just sent a long drawn out e-mail to EMI.

    Fingers crossed :ugeek:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:58 am

    I checked out Fair Use in Canada on Wikipedia:


    The Copyright Act establishes fair dealing in Canada, which allows specific exceptions to copyright protection. The open-ended concept of fair use is not observed in Canadian law. In 1985, the Sub-Committee on the Revision of Copyright rejected replacing fair dealing with an open-ended system, and in 1986 the Canadian government agreed that “the present fair dealing provisions should not be replaced by the substantially wider ‘fair use’ concept.”


    so I thought....hmmm maybe I am wrong... so I went to the page for Fair Dealing, and found this:


    The Canadian concept of fair dealing is similar to that in the UK and Australia. The fair dealing clauses[1] of the Canadian Copyright Act allow users to engage in certain activities relating to research, private study, criticism, review, or news reporting. With respect to criticism, review, and news reporting, <b>the user must mention the source of the material, along with the name of the author, performer, maker, or broadcaster for the dealing to be fair. </b>It is important to note that unlike fair use in the United States, which recognizes that parody can be fair, fair dealing in Canada has not definitely been found to contain exceptions for parody. A Quebec Court of Appeal in Les productions Avanti Cine Video v. Favreau (4 Aug 1999) recognized that parody could potentially be a 'critique', however it refused to recognize the exception in that circumstances as the defendants had tried to 'capitalize on' the popularity of the original work.

    The 2004 ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada in CCH Canadian Ltd. v. Law Society of Upper Canada has gone far in clarifying the concept of fair dealing in Canada. In considering fair dealing the Court makes the following general observation:

    It is important to clarify some general considerations about exceptions to copyright infringement. Procedurally, a defendant is required to prove that his or her dealing with a work has been fair; however, the fair dealing exception is perhaps more properly understood as an integral part of the Copyright Act than simply a defence. Any act falling within the fair dealing exception will not be an infringement of copyright. The fair dealing exception, like other exceptions in the Copyright Act, is a user's right. In order to maintain the proper balance between the rights of a copyright owner and users' interests, it must not be interpreted restrictively.

    Furthermore, by taking "a liberal approach to the enumerated purposes of the dealing",<b> the Court has made fair dealing more flexible, reducing the gap between this provision and US fair use.</b>

    It then establishes six principal criteria for evaluating fair dealing.

    1. The Purpose of the Dealing Is it for research, private study, criticism, review or news reporting? It expresses that "these allowable purposes should not be given a restrictive interpretation or this could result in the undue restriction of users' rights." In particular, the Court gave a "a large and liberal interpretation" to the notion of research, stating that "lawyers carrying on the business of law for profit are conducting research".
    2. The Character of the Dealing How were the works dealt with? Was there a single copy or were multiple copies made? Were these copies distributed widely or to a limited group of people? Was the copy destroyed after being used? What is the general practice in the industry?
    3. The Amount of the Dealing How much of the work was used? What was the importance of the infringed work? Quoting trivial amounts may alone sufficiently establish fair dealing as there would not be copyright infringement at all. In some cases even quoting the entire work may be fair dealing. The amount of the work taken must be fair in light of the purpose of the dealing.
    4. Alternatives to the Dealing Was a "non-copyrighted equivalent of the work" available to the user? Was the dealing "reasonably necessary to achieve the ultimate purpose"?
    5. The Nature of the Work Copying from a work that has never been published could be more fair than from a published work "in that its reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work - one of the goals of copyright law. If, however, the work in question was confidential, this may tip the scales towards finding that the dealing was unfair."
    6. Effect of the Dealing on the Work Is it likely to affect the market of the original work? "Although the effect of the dealing on the market of the copyright owner is an important factor, it is neither the only factor nor the most important factor that a court must consider in deciding if the dealing is fair."

    Though the Supreme Court outlined these six criteria, it noted that in some contexts, factors other than those listed may be relevant in determining whether a particular dealing is fair.



    ------
    Main points from this-

    -mention the original work in the video description
    -#2- character of the dealing. If it is on youtube, no one will have copies.
    -#4- it's not equivalent to the original
    -#5-reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work
    -#6- it won't affect the original
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:35 am

    Deathbringer wrote:Main points from this-

    -#1- mention the original work in the video description
    -#2- character of the dealing. If it is on youtube, no one will have copies.
    -#4- it's not equivalent to the original
    -#5- reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work
    -#6- it won't affect the original

    Well, first off Deathbringer, thanks so much for all your efforts in this matter. I know from what you said that you studied this stuff so I'm sure you enjoy it at least a little but you've clearly put a fair bit of time into digging up some very relevant stuff for me and, regardless of outcome, it's greatly appreciated.

    If ya don't mind though, I'd like to play devil's advocate in conversation with you here in order to flush out some of my own interpretations of what you've posted as well as to follow up with what I hear back from EMI. I must say though, it really pisses me off how very little any of the legal bodies I've contacted have been willing to tell me about even the slightest possibility of a loophole. Especially SOCAN who are a Canadian body whose charter, if I'm not mistaken, is all about supporting the little guy in this huge, musical marketplace. The really kind of brushed me off on a couple fronts and I'll be letting them know how much they suck once I've gotten to the other side of this.

    So, I do have to get to some more homework here very soon but just want to throw out a couple things that came to mind right away...

    -#1- mention the original work in the video description - I wouldn't have it any other way
    -#2- character of the dealing. If it is on youtube, no one will have copies. - You can download off youtube. I've done it. It's just not widely known how.
    -#4- it's not equivalent to the original - Not in it's entirety but definitely a 2 minute or so chunk is identical at least in basic composition
    -#5- reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work - I really don't think I could argue that I could help this song or artist in any way shape or form with my little project (although this in itself is part of what frustrates me. it's not like it can really impact them in any way whatsoever. I'm sure the band and the band member that wrote the song would have a laugh and say go ahead if it weren't for all this freaking red tape).
    -#6- it won't affect the original - see #5

    I really just think that it's the non-creative people on the business side of things that I need to be leery of in this whole thing. Part of me wishes I'd never even given it a second thought and just gone ahead with it but then again, I really don't want to insult or do any kind of injustice to one of my favourite bands by using something of theirs if such use would be undesirable to them. So I guess it's better this way and, like I said, if I can't get permission to go nuts with it, I'll just share it with a smaller audience who I can trust or keep from distributing copies etc.

    Thanks again. Hopefully the contact with EMI might yield something useful.
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:17 am

    ShoreSlayer wrote:
    I must say though, it really pisses me off how very little any of the legal bodies I've contacted have been willing to tell me about even the slightest possibility of a loophole. Especially SOCAN who are a Canadian body whose charter, if I'm not mistaken, is all about supporting the little guy in this huge, musical marketplace. The really kind of brushed me off on a couple fronts and I'll be letting them know how much they suck once I've gotten to the other side of this.
    \


    I'm sure they are just telling you not to do it because in the event that they say "Yeah I think it'd be ok" and you do it, then they don't want to be involved/responsible in any way.

    Well, shit I tried.
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:23 am

    Reply from EMI

    Hi Rob,

    I trust you are well.

    Thank you very much for your email and your honesty in trying to obtain the proper clearance for the X-X recording "X-X" but mashing up the recording with the theme from Gilligan's Island will not fly with the band.

    They like any other artists are very protective of their music and won't approve your request...I know that you have no intention to generate any income from this recording by selling it or giving it away for free..but I can assure you that if you were to put this mash on YouTube, it will be taken down immediately as YouTube doesn't allow unauthorized music without permission (the other X-X recordings are originals and those are fine, what you are thinking of doing is altering the master).

    We have no objection to you playing it live but you can't post it online...sorry.

    Best of luck on the 70,000 Tons of Metal cruise..sounds like fun.

    Best -
    Ralph

    The X-X are just me obscuring the name of the band and song as I still want it to be a mystery before anyone hears it. I have e-mailed him back to make sure he understands I'm not mashing the original recording into my song but actually performing and recording a new performance/take on it but I think he knows that and just chose words that were a bit confusing by mistake.

    Wow, not even a, "sure but it will cost you $xxxx.00" lol... So much for THAT idea!! [EDIT]!!!
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by debborah1 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:24 am

    I say we BURN THE PLACE DOWN!!!! :headbanger:
    2011 MAIDEN VOYAGE SURVIVOR!
    2012 cabin #7538.....2nd time survivor!!
    \m/ >.< \m/
    2014.....3RD TIME SURVIVOR
    2015.....BOOKED
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:28 am

    My friend recorded a dance cover of "Pills I Took" by Hank III for his album. Here's what he just told me about getting a license:

    i think i paid $60, which is good for like 500 downloads or something...but i didnt get the license for international release
    so, if BMI contacts me, I'll sort it out. thats the only way to get it for international is to go through the publishers directly and I couldnt get ahold of them after my half-assed attempts, so ill wait for them to come to me
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:41 am

    Deathbringer wrote:My friend recorded a dance cover of "Pills I Took" by Hank III for his album. Here's what he just told me about getting a license:

    i think i paid $60, which is good for like 500 downloads or something...but i didnt get the license for international release
    so, if BMI contacts me, I'll sort it out. thats the only way to get it for international is to go through the publishers directly and I couldnt get ahold of them after my half-assed attempts, so ill wait for them to come to me

    Yeah, I may end up looking into the license cost for the F'ing tv show theme song bit and just alter the middle part somehow. The most messed up part is that my favourite part of the whole project is that I got a guest guitarist to contribute a solo over the cover tune solo section in the middle and it was one of the greatest solos I've ever heard and now it will be nearly wasted and only heard by more than a handful of ppl maybe once and even that's only if I can get it played over the PA on the cruise (I may have to enlist Debb's help with that one ;) )

    Anyways, I don't wanna vent all over the boards any more so I'll update if anything changes.

    Cheers all
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:29 am

    My mind is seriously about to explode. I think I need to just put this shit down for a day or 2 :evil:

    This in response to my saying, 'are you sure you understand? I'm not using the original recording, I've re-performed and recorded all the parts myself (or with other musicians)....

    sorry Rob..now if that's the case then you don't need our permission..you will need to contact the publisher as you've re-recorded the track.
    the publisher is Universal Music Publishing and they can be contacted via their webpage at www.umusic.com

    best of luck,
    Ralph


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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:56 pm

    at least post the shred!
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:05 am

    Deathbringer wrote:at least post the shred!

    Now waiting to hear back from a guy at Universal. From what the EMI guy said, after he actually fucking read my e-mail and realized I wasn't merely mashing the band's original recording into the song, I now need to go through that channel to pursue the rights to do what I've done. But no, sorry, even if all this legal stuff ends up in a dead end, I'm not gonna post anything out of context.

    If it were to all crash to a halt today, I think this is what I'd do:

    1 - Continue to pursue the rights to use my metal rendition of the TV show theme song
    2 - Send final mix copies to a few select ppl who I know won't leak it and put my at risk of legal consequences
    3 - Bring the final mix of the entire song with on the cruise so ppl can hear it the way it's meant to be heard (either over headphones or, hopefully, one of the PA's between bands)
    4 - After the cruise, so long as I succeed at #1, write a new solo/middle section like I should have in the first place
    5 - Post to myspace/youtube/link on FB etc

    ...or something like that
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:08 pm

    About 3 weeks ago, I submitted the rough mix of the song along with a 'Sample/Adaptation Clearance Form' to the appropriate folks at Universal Music. Here's the reply I got just now:
    Rob:

    This use will most likely be denied as the band was not in favor of the use. I am just waiting for the official denial.

    Susan

    Susan Ranta | Senior Director, Music Sampling Clearances | Universal Music Publishing Group |


    So, barring any major, miraculous shift in the tides, this will be the last post I put to this thread until possibly after the cruise and I won't be making the song available online. Anyone who wants a listen, be sure to pack some headphones and come see me out in the sunshine (or moonshine) between bands or something.

    *i will not slash - i will not slash - i will not...* :lol:
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by ShoreSlayer » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:49 am

    Well, I never mentioned the name of the classic metal song snipped I'd used for this project as I wanted it to be a surprise but, since I'm forbidden to use it now, I figure I'll just share the info as part of the story.

    Since the main part of the song was based on the theme song from a TV show about passengers stranded after a shipwreck, I thought it would be cool/clever to combine it with a classic metal song with a similar, nautical mishap theme and so the solo section from Maiden's 'Rime of the Ancient Mariner' was an obvious choice. It sounded pretty cool I can tell you and the biggest shame of all is that none of you will ever hear the guest solo that was provided by Jake. Seriously, when it arrived via e-mail I nearly wept. It was just a sheer piece of freaking fretboard genius. I've already apologized to him privately but yeah, I can't tell you all how disappointed I am that he came through for me with such class and friendship and it was, mostly, all for naught. Obviously, I should have looked into the legalities of this before putting in so much time, effort (mine and others') and money but such is life.

    So, I thought you guys might get a kick out of the scan and then just wanted to let ya know that what remains of the song should be available to hear soon.

    Cheers!

    Image
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    Re: Rough Draft - More to come

    by Deathbringer » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:34 pm

    I bet the person writing the letter was thinking "what the hell is a shredigan?"...
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